Hey there! I’m A.J. and I’m one of the Project Managers at wikiHow. We have an exciting new project that we’re looking to test that involves our awesome wikiHow Forums. We’re looking to provide wikiHow readers who are interested in Minecraft with an interactive space to talk about Minecraft!Since so many people come to wikiHow for Minecraft help already, we were wondering if they might be interested in having a wikiHow forum. It could be an awesome way to help people in real-time.

  • :brain:To test our idea, we plan to put banners on Minecraft articles inviting people to explore the new Minecraft forum. The forum would live in its own new category (much like Village Pump, we’d have a Minecraft Category).

  • :rocket:To start with, we would just test to see if people click on the link in the banner. Then, if enough people click on the banners, we would consider linking to the forum on more articles and actively build it up!

  • :thought_balloon:Of course, we will need to work some things through, like Trust Levels, logging in/creating accounts, how people will post, and probably a bunch of things we haven’t yet considered that you could help us with. At this stage, it wouldn’t require anything extra from the current forum moderators/admins (unless you’d like to help!) because we would watch over it.

So, we’d love your thoughts:bulb::

  • Would you personally be interested in a Minecraft forum within our wikiHow forums? Have you used a forum like this before?
  • Do you think wikiHow readers would use a Minecraft forum?
  • Do you have any suggestions for what we should focus on?
  • Do you have any other feedback or suggestions about things we might not have thought about yet?!
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So wikiHowSMP when?

However, I think that a Minecraft area for community members would be great! It would be a cool way to interact with fellow gamers who play Minecraft and could be used for a plethora of things. I certainly won’t complain.

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Sorry guys, not a fan of this idea! I don’t play Minecraft so I don’t know if there are any official forums in the first place? Even so, I think people who come to wikiHow for Minecraft help are really just beginners looking for advice on starting out. And then there’s the serious players who would most likely use Wikia/FANDOM or Discord communities when looking for advanced tricks. I know I use wikis when I wanna learn more about the games I’m playing.

I also feel like this might have the potential to introduce some spam or unwanted behaviour into other areas of the forums and main site. With the younger fanbase of Minecraft, it might even make reinforcing the whole “wikiHow is not a social media/chat site” thing a lot more harder - something that admins tend to have more trouble with nowadays.

It’s an innovative idea, but I’m not sure if this would have the positive impact the team is anticipating. Perhaps the hidden insider data would suggest otherwise, but I just don’t want the Haus to be using up resources on something that wouldn’t gain traction and end up falling through. And with the ongoing community concerns, this could be another thing that makes us appear as less of a collaborative wiki project

shrug

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Matt beat me to posting, but could I point out something that I think may not have been considered here?

The Minecraft community tends to skew younger; many players are under 13, who we can’t legally collect data from without parental consent. Nor do the forum categories operate independently of each other. There will inevitably be people who lie about their ages and/or spread to other sections of the forums to chat, troll, or cause trouble. I’m not thrilled with the idea of bringing a younger crowd to the forums where they can proceed to cause a ruckus, especially if they’re not interested in helping wikiHow itself.

Discourse is a real-time platform and we only have a handful of admins at a given time. We’ve always put a big emphasis on how nothing on wikiHow needs to be handled immediately, but trolling on Discourse can blow up in minutes when an admin isn’t around, which negates that underlying message. Even if everyone is well-behaved at all times (and they won’t be), younger crowds tend to be impatient, and that would result in thread-spamming. I don’t think any of us want to wake up to a new thread with 80+ responses, especially if most of said responses are just kids having a non-constructive discussion while waiting for someone to actually answer them.

I’d also be worried about how this would shape the forums as a whole. Something like this would likely require creation of actual forum guidelines or rules, which we’ve historically avoided due to the fact that creating those would be like opening Pandora’s box. Going back to what Matt said about community concerns and looking less like a collaborative wiki project, the lack of explicit forum rules has worked for us because of the collaborative nature of the project; if we’re just inviting in a presumably-younger age bracket who has little to no interest in contributing to wikiHow itself, then it risks damaging the collaborative aspect of the forums, because they’re not interested in collaborating and because we have to make rules to rein them in.

Maybe there’s a way to make it work; I wouldn’t know what those ways are (I’m in the waiting room at the doctor’s right now so don’t have the brainspace to think of anything), but honestly, my first reaction is that I’m not a fan of this idea either.

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Conceptualising this forum as something like a more interactive version of Article Q&As and in some way ‘walled-off’ from the main forums, I can see it having some use and potentially some degree of popularity. For even this concept to work, however, I feel that a great deal of work would be needed in terms of moderations (and as a result, probably at least some level of volunteer moderation) as, if it’s only Haus staff, issues (be they from bad-faith use, safeguarding issues, etc.) could quite quickly arise and worsen in the time that Haus staff are offline.

As others have, far more eloquently that I, pointed out, though, I think there are some potentially significant ramifications of having this operated as a part of the main forums in terms of legal (e.g. COPPA), practical (forum rules, moderation), and purpose.

I’m particularly concerned, as expressed in Alex’s post, about how turning the potential audience of the forums away from those who are generally interested in editing and collaborating on wH could reduce the ability of the forums to act as a means to coordinate on projects and issues affecting the wiki.

Whilst I can potentially see a way of this general idea working, I don’t think the current concept of this project as a part of the forums is in a particularly workable state.

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If I can build off this, GB, this also raises the concern… if this were to become popular but we didn’t have the staff or volunteer capacity to moderate it, then how would we handle it? Because my first thought is that the Haus would have to start hiring people specifically to moderate the forums, and I’m honestly rather iffy on that idea, given how long it can take to fully get to know how wikiHow works.

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Sorry for the double-post, but now that I’m back in my dorm and thinking a little bit better, I want to ask… what’s the goal behind this idea?

I really appreciate that you guys went out of your way to get our feedback first and didn’t just force the idea on us (and it’s really neat to see you in the forums, @Ajaldana – the community-staff engagement is great!). But I’m also fumbling for a response beyond “I don’t like this because X, Y, and Z,” because it’s not clear what prompted the idea or what purpose it’d serve. Interactive ways of helping people in real-time seem like they’d already be covered to some degree by article Q&As, even if Q&As are slower. Is it to gain traffic specifically among a niche audience, to encourage community engagement and activity, or something else? If we have a clearer picture of the underlying purpose, there might be alternative compromises or solutions we could discuss here.

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Hey y’all - It’s been great getting to engage with y’all in the forums as well:slightly_smiling_face:We really appreciate the feedback you all have given so far! From the age of Minecraft users, to patrolling the forums during off-hours for the Haus, and the other great points you’ve made we have a few things to noodle on about this project.

As far as the intention of this project, it’s dual-pronged. Because we have such an incredible selection of Minecraft articles, we were hoping to create an internal wikiHow community within our forums that would provide a space for folks to ask questions, bond over Minecraft achievements, or share builds and ideas they have in-game. We also were hoping that by building a forum centered on Minecraft, we can help create more helpful content for users who are already learning new things from our existing articles!

Let me know if we can answer any more questions and thank you all for your thoughtful responses so far!

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Thanks, A.J. – that does help quite a bit:slight_smile:

I think something really important to keep in mind with this idea is that moderating wikiHow and the forums also involves protecting younger users from less-savory people out there. We’re unfortunately not immune to predators or scammers, and while admins obviously do what we can to stop these kinds of people, I’d be really worried about the ways this could end badly. There will be someone who attempts to hijack someone else’s account or act predatory towards younger users. If a minor were to get hurt or scammed because of the difficulty moderating this kind of thing, we’re opening ourselves up to a potentially long-lasting legal battle, and an angry parent with a malicious lawyer could drag the lawsuit out for an incredibly long time – which, worst-case scenario, could cost enough to kill wikiHow outright.

There’s also inevitably going to be someone who creates a Minecraft server, which is legitimately impossible for us to moderate. The game costs money, Java and Bedrock editions were incompatible last I checked, and you can’t jump onto a server and review everything in five minutes like you can with the forums. There’s really no way we can avoid people sharing server names, IP addresses, or so forth, and even if we could strictly enforce a “no servers” rule, someone would get around it by sharing it over email or offsite. Then there’s the same risk of someone getting hurt or scammed, and we legitimately can’t do anything about that. (Even aside from that, imagine the temper tantrums over someone’s house or base getting griefed… Yikes.)

Even on a “lighthearted” note, a forum for Minecraft could risk causing drama and massive blowups that would just irritate the admin team at best. I love looking at people’s Minecraft creations now and again, but I can also easily see preteens squabbling with each other because “you copied my build!” – it seems silly to adults, but this kind of thing is a Huge Frickin’ Deal™ when you’re 9-13 or so, and can result in some incredibly heated arguments, or even worse. (TW: suicide mention) I was once told to kill myself over some Minecraft drama, and I was 12 and dealing with suicidal thoughts at the time. I don’t want someone else to experience that sort of thing, especially on a real-time platform where they could still get a glimpse of the message before an admin deletes it (particularly when many kids are experiencing depression or anxiety, and may be using games as an escape).

There’s an underlying issue, too, that we’d probably struggle to engage the current wikiHow-facing community with a separate, internal Minecraft one. Per the Community Topic Areas , we don’t really have that many people who play the game. I have Minecraft, but I don’t play regularly and am horrendously out of the loop, and I’m sure lots of other community members are the same (or just don’t play at all). There’s no easy way to engage with a userbase where you have little in common, and some users may not feel comfortable doing so – as a 21-year-old guy, I’m uncomfortably aware that being “too friendly” with kids could put a target on my back. That’d lead to some amount of community disengagement from that section at least, and if the internal Minecraft community were to bleed over into the regular section of the forums and start causing trouble, I could even see it putting wikiHowians off the forums entirely.

I can mull some alternative ideas over a bit later (can’t think of anything off the top of my head), but knowing what we’re hoping to achieve gives us a much better jumping-off point; this really helps, and I’ll jump back in later if I have more ideas (I encourage anyone else reading the thread to do this too, because I know I tend to hijack forum threads with entire essays, lol). Thank you!

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Considering this particular aim, might it be possible to allow people to upload images of builds etc. to a section of the relevant article? I know that would obviously entail a level of engineering work, both in terms of the actual mechanism of upload and display and looking at a tool for approving/managing these uploads, and some level of moderation to ensure that unsavoury/irrelevant images don’t get put live. Whilst this wouldn’t have anywhere approaching the discursive dimension that a forum would, this could possibly alleviate some of the issues around constant chat moderation/age concerns/etc.

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User Completed Images! That was a thing some years ago; I don’t know if it’s been permanently retired or not, but this has definitely been possible in the past. The downside is that it was also really common for people to upload porn or other questionable content through that feature, which we’d then run into in Picture Patrol… but I know Discord has some kind of “scanning” system that can auto-block someone from sending porn to users who aren’t on their friends list, so I wonder if there’s some kind of auto-detection tool that could weed out anything blatantly inappropriate, in addition to some amount of further review.

Building off of this, aren’t we working on a comment feature for list articles? What if there was a way to integrate comments into UCIs so that there is some amount of user engagement? I’m not sure how we’d keep the inappropriate comments out (I’m assuming they wouldn’t go through RCP), but maybe it’s something to consider?
e:Filters could potentially keep some inappropriate content out of the comments too, now that I’m thinking about it. There are filters on Q&A that block your answer from going through if it has disallowed content in it, and I think Anna mentioned once that profanity is included in those filters; maybe there’s some way to “clone” the filter contents and adapt them accordingly.

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Thanks for sharing the new idea, @Ajaldana ! As an initial disclosure, I’ve never played Minecraft, so take my feedback with a grain of salt.:slight_smile:With that said, I have a general idea what Minecraft is, so I’m still happy to share my two cents.

We have a lot of readership on our Minecraft topics, and this seems like a really fun way to drive meaningful and potentially long-lasting and repeat engagement from Minecraft fans. I think giving this a shot as you’ve outlined is a great idea to try out and see how readers respond. It would be pretty neat if it works out, and it could possibly open the door to other “themed” forums on other topics where the readership could benefit from forum style dialogue with others in real-time.

As far as some of the logistics, I’d like to see this walled off and separate from our existing forums (rather than just another category within our existing forums). This would allow for some customization in color and design themes to make it more Minecraft-y. This would also reduce concerns over some of those posters seeping into the Village Pump or other existing categories by mistake.

I don’t share too many concerns about forum moderation since it sounds like the wikiHaus staff would be able to help moderate. Our forum settings have pretty solid spam tools in place to help prevent mass chaos.:slight_smile:

On wikiHow (and really any other online presence), I think the only constant should be change if we want to continue to keep readers engaged and coming back. It’s another outlet to allow us to help reach readers in a way we don’t really offer today.

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Tell us you don’t moderate General Chat without saying you don’t moderate General Chat.:slight_smile:

More seriously, I should mention: I’ve been part of Minecraft forums/communities myself when I was younger. If this became popular, I genuinely don’t think the wikiHaus would actually have time to moderate this. The Minecraft community is massive , and the younger the crowd, the more time they have on their hands. I was part of a forum that typically had 6 people online, give or take, with probably about 12-13 regular members, and things still could explode in a matter of minutes – and this was on a platform similar to Vanilla, where you had to refresh threads to see replies. On Discourse, with a significantly larger userbase, someone would have to devote literally all their time and effort to moderating, and that’s not accounting for the increase in activity during school breaks or periods where the wikiHaus mods aren’t available (or where those two coincide, like winter break).

It’s also worth mentioning that while Discourse’s tools can block posts for further review, block links, or censor inappropriate language, there’s no way to set up a filter that blocks people from sharing Minecraft servers. On Java Edition, you connect to a server using the “server IP,” which can look like a URL – but it can also look like an IP address. I’m pretty sure Realms (a subscription-model part of the game that allows for small servers) and the console editions also operate on a username-based invite system, which we wouldn’t have a way to flag via automated tools.

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I understand your reservations, although I think they might be rooted in fears of what could possibly go wrong. If we think about the worst case scenario of what might possibly go wrong then we’ll never innovate or change anything.:slight_smile:

Just because we’re discussing giving something a try doesn’t mean it would be set in stone and never evaluated to see how things are going. I think it’s reasonable to believe that if things got out of control then the forum moderation would be reviewed and adjusted as needed.

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To be honest, I love this idea. There’s so many community members and people that come to wikiHow looking for assistance with the game or talking about it. This would provide a space for that.

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This comes back to Pandora’s box, though. With a forum platform, once it’s opened, you can’t easily shut it off. Gaming spheres can be dangerous and are incredibly toxic; I definitely ran into predators when I was young (thankfully none of them got anywhere at that time, but it could’ve been far worse), and I can’t name any multiplayer game where I haven’t been told at least once to hurt or kill myself. All it takes are two kids with a personality clash and too much time on their hands for a massive explosion of drama, and if one or both kids have mental health issues and lack support (which isn’t uncommon, especially in a post-COVID world), that kind of thing can have serious, irreversible consequences.

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I think a normal user can post in this thread. Minecraft community forums is a great idea and most of the users come to wikiHow for Minecraft tips or something similar. @anon74718567 I think there should be something called “Moderator” a user who can delete spam posts or any kind of useless posts in this thread and pass information to the admins. Admins will not be online always so I think this idea should be good?

The wiki itself does not give advanced tips, the player there does and I think some of the users here are Minecraft player and iam also one!

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Thanks for the response AJ! It’s pretty refreshing to see other staff members engage with the community:slight_smile:

I won’t add anything to the concerns Alex made regarding moderation and child protection, because he really hit the nail right on the head for me. Gaming communities can be very toxic at times (it’s sad that young gamer kids can be pretty nasty online), so if this project were to be implemented, we would need to pay extra close attention to all aspects of moderation. Of course, the amount of moderation would probably depend on how popular this would be, but it is important to ensure the safety of both users and mods (whether volunteer or staff).

I do have some issue with this: “ create an internal wikiHow community within our forums that would provide a space for folks to ask questions, bond over Minecraft achievements, or share builds and ideas they have in-game. ” From my perspective, it just feels like this idea is something a player-run fansite would do, and would be contrary to our educational and collaborative mission. For lack of a better word, it just feels kinda weird for wikiHow. I also know that a major priority these days is maintaining our status as an authoritative educational resource amid a rapidly-evolving online landscape with stricter SEO guidelines by Google. I am by no means an expert in SEO, but I kinda feel like this project has the potential to harm our reputation.

I’m open to swaying my opinion over time when we learn more about the details of it all. But personally I am still opposed to this idea.

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Discourse moderation requires users to be at trust level 4, which we reserve for wikiHow administrators. And honestly, having a separate group for moderators feels like it’s adding unnecessary work… there’s no way to tell if someone would have the ability to moderate anything without seeing their behavior over a period of time, and that also raises the question of whether we’d have an application system that a volunteer admin or a staff member would have to sort through. (That kind of stuff takes time.)

This also comes back to the problem of having to establish firm rules for the forums, which I’m not really a fan of. If the Minecraft forum was entirely separate, then I could shrug it off, but if it’s part of the general wikiHow forums, then I have some qualms with it.

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