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I took a recent poll to see people’s thoughts on welcomer rights. Many of us has agreed that Welcome Wagon Users should have WelcomeBot Rights. There is also an ongoing discussion about whether or not Tips Patrol Rights should be granted. Here is my argument.

Welcomers should have WelcomeBot rights because it will provide more quality help to new users. WelcomeBot often leads to users asking questions about the community, and providing help is what welcomers are good at. The Welcome Wagon gives new users a bit of good advice and help, and WelcomeBot does the same. New users ask questions, and welcomers are completely capable of  answering them. Users welcomed by tested welcomers ask questions as well, and if welcomers offer guidance as their sole purpose, so it is most logical that they get rights in the WelcomeBot so they can fully utilize this purpose, making the community more effective. Also, I believe that their isn’t a big difference between the Welcome Wagon and WelcomeBot, as pretty much the users ask the same questions. However, I would suggest to set a limit for the test, such as 200 or 300 contributions, including the 1 month rule. Also, it is called a Welcomer and a WelcomeBot after all.:slight_smile:

Our “argument” for Tips Patrol is still feeble, so I would go much into depth here. You can view the basic meaning at this page: wikihow.com/wikiHow:Welcomer-Rights-Project .

What are your thoughts? Post them below!

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Personally, I think Tips Patrol is not really needed. It’s about your thoughts, though!

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I support this all. (It’s natural that most non-booster welcomers will support it).

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@HappyWiki I kind of support Tips Patrol; I believe that any experienced editor will know how to edit tips, add them, and know which ones to patrol. Also, I believe that if a welcomer has the ability to help a new user, it would probably have the ability to patrol tips. I support all of this too!

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Happy Saturday (we made it to the weekend)! 

Since the way this proposal is structured remains unchanged, I’ll pass along the concerns previously addressed that nobody from the proposal group has responded to: 

From @Galactic-Radiance : 

I think it’s worth bringing up that while it makes sense at a glance to have welcomers on WelcomeBot, the use of WelcomeBot and Welcome Wagon are different. WelcomeBot is primarily aimed at giving new users an experienced user to ask for help - when I had my WelcomeBot enabled, I received a ton of questions about things like creating new articles or policies or even just totally unrelated stuff, which not every Welcomer would be informed on. It’s also not uncommon to get trolls through WelcomeBot, and boosters and admins are expected to be able to handle those diplomatically; Welcomers don’t necessarily have that same skillset. Welcome Wagon is aimed primarily at making new users feel welcome and encouraged, and opening up the lines of communication. They might be similar on the surface, but they’ve got two different uses:stuck_out_tongue:

I also get the impression the Tips Patrol restriction is currently temporary due to the experimental nature of the tool? See  here . Depending on how that goes, the restriction might be removed in due course anyway.

Second message from @Galactic-Radiance : 

I took the Welcomer test in 2016, so things might have changed since then, but I was actually taught that we should never coach when welcoming users - welcoming’s about making them feel appreciated and welcome in the community, not about telling them their article got NFD’d or anything along those lines. The most I’ve seen is some very slight guidance on using Spellchecker or RC Patrol just saying that you can skip things if you’re unsure. Welcoming someone by telling them their article was NFD’d isn’t all that welcoming:stuck_out_tongue:

Also, from what I’ve observed (and Jayne can correct me if I’m wrong on this), it’s more common for newer users to become Welcomers, which doesn’t require a grasp on policy like NAB does. NAB requires you to already know the Merge and Title policies, while welcoming doesn’t have any policies tied into it. Being able to help and knowing the policies are also two different things - you can apply a tag to an article, yet have no idea when you should be applying it. I’d generally expect a Booster who’s been on the wiki for two months to have a better grasp on wiki advice than a Welcomer who’s been on the wiki for two months, because the focus of the tasks is different.

Excerpt from @Zygomatt : 

Secondly, regarding this statement on the page:

“Currently, we feel that welcomers are in a different circle with boosters and admins. The goal of this project is to mainly level out the awkward relations with welcomers and other “badge” bearers.”

This feels a little too divisive for comfort. User right groups aren’t cliques. Yet ironically this proposal does have a cliquey vibe to it ( the whole “please avoid discussing this until we tell you to”). Is it solely due to the lack of access to WelcomeBot and Tips Patrol? Or is there a deeper reason, like feeling inadequate in the welcomer role when compared to boosters/admins? Can you expand on what the “awkward relations” are? Is this sentiment reflective of the wider list of welcomers?

Welcomers are expected to go above the robotic and monotone nature of the WelcomeBot message. WB works by automatically generating a message upon the first edit, with the “sender” being the last booster/admin to make an edit. I turned off my settings because I tend to edit late at night, then wake up in the morning with my phone blown up from email notifications from talk page messages. A lot of the replies to WB is just “ok thx” or trolling or something simply not worth replying to. If welcomers already have access to a dashboard tool intended to send out personalized messages to new editors rather than newly signed-up users who may or may not even make a single contrib, what is the point of adding welcomers to the bot list? I understand the desire for inclusion here, but it does seem moot for me. 

I respect all of you as wikiHowians. We all do great work together. That’s the power of collaboration and that’s why I love this project. If you feel inadequate as a welcomer, know that technical user rights does not define your worth as a contributor. All of us are equal regardless of whether you’re a staff/volunteer, admin/booster/welcomer/regular user, 2005 veteran/2020 newbie, etc etc etc. I guess I’m just having a hard time grasping what the ultimate goal of this proposal/project is.

Message from @Eric : 

I have numerous concerns with the way this proposal has come about. There seems to be some serious entitlement issues here, with the project page advocating for “authorized” users that should be contacted for help, and referring to “badge bearers” in an attempt to elevate certain users with a status deemed to be higher than other users. 

Please, please understand that no users on wikiHow are considered to be more “elevated” (or important) with increased status than other users. Even Admins are just fellow community members with a couple of extra buttons to help them maintain the integrity of the site. They’re not any more “elevated” than anyone else in the community.

The Welcome Wagon test difficulty is commensurate with the user rights gained through passing the test. The entire purpose of the tool, as has been mentioned previously, is to allow Welcomers to find opportunities to provide personalized and positive feedback to new users about specific contributions a particular user has made. There’s really no correlation between the role of a Welcomer and the users in the WelcomeBot rotation. Tying the two together doesn’t make a lot of sense in my mind. 

The users in the WelcomeBot rotation are generally more experienced users who have demonstrated their understanding of various wikiHow policies and editing best practices by passing a NAB test or becoming an Admin. This certainly doesn’t go to say there aren’t educated users that are also Welcomers, it’s just that I don’t think the intention of the Welcomer role was ever to be attached to the WelcomeBot messages that go out to brand new user accounts. 

If you could address these comments/concerns, that would be great. Thanks!

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@Galactic-Radiance and @Eric ‘s message, I don’t believe that there is a big difference between the Welcome Wagon and WelcomeBot. Usually, new users ask questions similar too, such as how to start an article, some questions about the policies, and these questions are usually answerable by welcomers. The point of the Welcome Wagon is to help new users, and I believe that is so with the WelcomeBot too. If a welcomer passed the test, Jayne probably took thought into whether the user has the ability to help a new user or not. Also, the add on with the new contributions rule, I believe that there is no problem with allowing welcomers in the WelcomeBot.

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Welcomers are selected specifically for their understanding of how to be welcoming and avoid coaching or overwhelming new users. Welcomers have not explicitly shown that they have the skill set to diplomatically field questions about wikiHow policy and procedure. 

Giving welcomers the responsibility of fielding policy and procedure questions by including them in the welcome bot rotation does not seem in the best interest of the community. I think it would be a mistake to give welcomers any rights or responsibilities outside of those they have been specifically tested for.

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@Eric @Zygomatt For the second question in the poll, I believe that you might of made a mistake. I don’t think the question is that do you want to make badge bearers elevated and at a higher esteem, but that is there this elevation and gap between them, and do you want to remove that gap.

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@Alabaster Welcomers were tested for helping people on a kind and effective way. Like said, questions asked by people to their “WelcomeBot” and questions asked to welcomers are very similar; it I saw natural to have alike concerns when you’re new. Technically, they have been already tested for this type of responsibility, only it wasn’t given. To address your “coaching” part, most people who are welcomed in the wagon ask questions that require them to be coached. Even if you don’t want welcomers to help coach new users, naturally, new users request it anyway, so I believe that it makes no big difference for welcomers to be part in rotation of the WelcomeBot. @WikiaWang Yes, that was what it is about.

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@Galactic-Radiance 2nd message. You are right. Welcomers tend to be newer, but they still are knowledgeable when it comes to policy. @JayneG wouldn’t trust a user that doesn’t know how to handle certain situations to become a Welcomer. Our request for 300 contribs for the test will further back up this argument.

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According to my understanding of what is tested of potential welcomers, this is a false assumption. You might ask @JayneG to weigh in here.

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@Alabaster Yes, I think it would make things a lot clearer if we just asked Jayne. @FlowerPower555 Yes, I think it’s possible for sometimes users with more authority to forget what if feels like to be a non-admin/booster. No offense though!:smiley:

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@Alabaster Maybe you aren’t the most up to date on welcomers (no offense!). The only ones that still make edits are all rather experienced, and those are the only ones who are to be put in the rotation. Correct me if I’m wrong, please! @FlowerPower555 @WikiaWang True. It is natural that rather powerful users won’t understand our side of the argument, since it is easy to forget where you were when you weren’t an admin or booster. No offense to anyone, though.:smiley:

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@HappyWiki @Alabaster I believe that welcomers who still welcome are experienced (well, at least I believe so) enough for the WelcomeBot, and hopefully that will be so too. However, I don’t believe that @Alabaster isn’t up-to-date; it just might be that most welcomers left, and only a handful still contribute, which can prove that they have the ability to help and coach, but of course, they aren’t as experienced as booster or admins. Hopefully, more is to come!

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*whistles* (just gonna put my thoughts on here, too)

As for Tips Patrol, it seems that it may someday be available to everyone. But if that’s not the case, I don’t believe Welcomers should gain specific access to it. Their job, again, is welcoming new users in a friendly manner. Some may be unfamiliar with policy. A separate test could potentially work, but I doubt that’s really necessary, again since it seems it may be available to all users at some point. I’m sure Welcomers would use the tool correctly, but it doesn’t really seem to relate to their role at all, if that makes sense?

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I agree with that, and I can live with not being able to use tips patrol, but the WelcomeBot right I think should be granted.

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I have to be honest - at this point, I’m really confused. The request was that Welcomers be added to WelcomeBot, but then @HappyWiki says that only experienced Welcomers should be put in the rotation? Even barring the fact that there was no specific request for that, that’s not how WelcomeBot works anyway - as soon as someone gains boostership or adminship, they’re immediately added to WelcomeBot, even though someone with new user rights is undoubtedly still on their trial period. From an engineering perspective, there isn’t currently a way to pick-and-choose who’s on the bot - users have to manually disable it themselves if they don’t want to be on it.

I think there’s also a misunderstanding of what coaching entails. Coaching isn’t just when you give advice or answer someone’s question - it’s also when you give guidance , like if you see someone making edits that don’t match our guidelines, or if you see someone feeding a troll and let them know how we typically handle trolls, or if you see someone overwhelming new users with copy-pasted welcome messages, or so forth. I don’t doubt that Welcomers have the ability to give advice or answer questions - you’re all quite smart! I’m just not sure if the majority of Welcomers would have the skillset to give guidance in that way, especially considering that the role is specifically based around not  giving this kind of guidance.

The statement that “Jayne wouldn’t trust a user that doesn’t know how to handle certain situations to become a Welcomer” is an assumption and I don’t think it’s actually accurate. It’s entirely possible for users to lose their user rights due to a mishandling of a situation (it’s rare, and it takes a lot, but it’s happened).

And I feel like this statement from HW needs to be addressed:

“It is natural that rather powerful users won’t understand our side of the argument, since it is easy to forget where you were when you weren’t an admin or booster.”

This comes off as very exclusive and dismissive. Boosters and admins are not  “rather powerful” - I’m seriously concerned about the nature of this statement, and how it’s also being used to dismiss the statements of anyone who isn’t just a Welcomer.  Is there a concern about the differences between roles that we need to be addressing?

I’ll be upfront: I’ve had booster rights since very early in my days on the wiki. But I deliberately turned my WelcomeBot off after awhile because I wound up exhausted by dealing with trolls and coaching and answering questions all the time, and didn’t have the skillset or the maturity to handle them the way I do now. (Even now, I keep it off because there’s only so much I can deal with.) Boostership is a responsibility that requires the ability to keep your cool when dealing with upset users or trolls, and I came close to losing my user rights a few times because I didn’t have the maturity to handle it at the time. I’m not disagreeing because I’ve “forgotten where I was” - I’m disagreeing because not even boosters or admins always have the ability to handle these kinds of situations, and Welcomers aren’t asked to have these skills to begin with.

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There is no difference in terms of treatment towards admins vs welcomers. I don’t think snobs do well on wikiHow. Whoever is on wikiHow, welcomers, boosters, admins, none of these I mean regular contributors, staff are all pretty chill. The way this concern has been brought up is disturbing. The approach itself initiates a reasoning that maked the community “think” of a divide. I hope the approach is clear and not aimed at creating a rift between wikiHowians. We are one. Tips patrol rights is under scrutiny for a reason. The tips on so many articles get so long, they get longer than the steps and look like a grocery bill. A good eye is needed to patrol them. I leave it to the staff to decide. There are some contributors who ask why their tip has been removed. I only ask us all to be informed what to do with tips and how to coach disappointed contributors. May be an updated article on it should help. There are admins who are boosters too. And there are welcomers who are boosters as well. So, I don’t know where we stand with the term badge bearers. I don’t know who is a badge bearer then. There is no extra weight given to admins or boosters. They are very kind. If welcomers feel left out, it’s should be reasoned within themselves. The system of wikiHow is well governed with utmost care. Those who have a problem with following the rules, should introspect their mindset and be a sport about it. I see welcomers with so much respect. I never thought they weren’t as happy.

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Although I can appreciate the desire to have more responsibility and be more visible as a Welcomer, the idea of the welcomer badge is to have a role that doesn’t require a lot of contributions and is a fun way for someone to get more responsibility on wikiHow without needing to understand all of the policies and guidelines. I don’t think it’s necessary to stipulate the number of contributions needed, or to change the guidelines or quiz so it’s harder to achieve. Welcomers are not tested for further responsibility or knowledge about any wikiHow policies, it is based on their ability to be encouraging and welcoming, and I think this is a great first step for someone interested in promoting wikiHow and encouraging other new wikiHowians. 

Although it seems like there is a connection between WelcomeBot and Welcomers, I would also advocate that this is not something to add Welcomers too. As mentioned by others, those in the WelcomeBot rotation are tested on their knowledge of policies and have experience with a variety of aspects of wikiHow life that Welcomers do not need to have. The purpose of Welcomers is to be a friendly point of contact, not to offer policy advice or coaching for problem edits to new contributors. Welcomers come into play after someone has made at least 5 contributions, so it’s probable that the new user is interested in participating, and a friendly, personal message is likely to be appreciated. WelcomeBot often leads to a user getting a lot of random, one word replies, or nothing at all - in some ways I feel that it’s likely to create a less positive experience for a Welcomer and could take away from the more important contributions of Welcomers. There are plenty of engaged people in the Welcome Wagon who would benefit greatly from the attention of a Welcomer over those who reply to a WelcomeBot message.

This proposal also would involve technical changes that we could consider for the future if consensus is gained, but with all of the current challenges our engineering team faces, it would be unlikely to be implemented soon.

With regard to Tips Patrol, it is currently available to admins and boosters. These two groups are required to have extensive experience with a range of edits on the site, and are likely confident in identifying spam and other unhelpful contributions. This makes them best placed for identifying what sort of tips would be appropriate and which would not. I don’t see a correlation with the Welcomer role that would make it specifically suitable to have access to Tips Patrol. 

From my perspective, and that of several others in this discussion, all of these roles are working well currently, and there doesn’t seem to be the strong agreement among community members that would be necessary for us to seriously consider proceeding forward in making changes to these roles.

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I agree with @JayneG and @Eric .

As someone who is working on becoming a welcome wagon user, I don’t think adding tips patrol and welcome bot to the duties of a welcomer is the best idea.  I want to become a welcomer, not to earn a badge or prestige, but because I genuinely enjoy helping people, and because I want to be able to give back to wikiHow in the best way that I can.  For me, I think that could be helping new users find their footing, the same way so many people on this forum helped me.

Being the friendly face of wikiHow to newcomers is something that I would love to do, and I don’t see how tips patrol would help welcome wagon users to do this.  I can sort of see an argument for the welcome bot, but, as stated so many times by others (and much better than I could put it), the point of the welcome bot is to give a new user an experienced, knowledgeable, longtime-wikiHowian to contact with questions.  I feel like those people are admins and boosters; not because all welcomers are inexperienced, just that admins and boosters are the most experienced.  

Another point I would like to make is that becoming a welcomer is generally the first role people test out of on wikihow, meaning that it is a role people like me, who are inexperienced, can see and say “I could do that.” I would still be willing to take the test with additional requirements, but adding more responsibilities and requirements might scare some people away.  I think this is a well-researched project, and I appreciate the time and effort put into it, but I think the role of welcomer is good the way it is.