WRM articles appear, and seem to avoid the NAB process, with the idea they are written with accurate sources and competent research.  I doubt those two objectives are really met, but occasionally, they produce content which I am familiar with.  Since they decided to tackle a subject I deal with daily on a professional level, I would like to encourage someone to take a look at  http://www.wikihow.com/Meet-Building-Code-Requirements to address some issues that stand out.

The first large issue is the page ignores the topic. It fails to point out the need to have plans reviewed by the code enforcement organization (locally known as a code enforcement board, part of planning and zoning, a county department, although the county level is completely ignored in the content, and in some jurisdictions, a city level board would have similar authority). Code compliance CANNOT occur if plans and specifications are not reviewed, so there is an immediate fail.

Secondly, the article refers to the IBC (international building code), but there are very few jurisdictions which operate directly under that code, and even then, the IBC doesn’t cover fire protection in many jurisdictions, the NFPA (5000) does.  ASHRAE covers mechanical codes, there is a distinct plumbing code  organisation, and the NEC has an independent, nationally recognized National Electrical Code.  So, how does the reader learn to follow building codes when the article offers only one source, which doesn’t even cover the topic?

Another issue is the fact that the reader is told to give the code to workers to be sure they do work that complies. This is ridiculous.  Workers are given plans and specifications produced by licensed architects, engineers, and other qualified people, and do their work strictly according to those plans and specifications.  Having a worker read building codes to determine how to perform work would mean a building simply would never be built.

Nowhere in the present article is there mention of scheduling and coordinating inspections by the official who actually determines if the work complies with the codes. That requires three unique steps, as well. First, a permit must be obtained to perform the work, second, a call must be made to the inspection department, and third, the proper documents and access must be made available to the inspector at the time of the inspection. These must be done in a precise order, for instance, rough in utility inspections must be made prior to structural inspection before placing a concrete slab.

Lastly (since I really haven’t spent much time looking at the page), a workaround for getting an exemption for non compliant work is given, involving hiring an attorney. When you find you must work in noncompliance, the person who will persuade the inspector the work is sound and acceptable is not a lawyer, it is an engineer or architect who specializes in the scope of work involved. Suing or pursuing a legal challenge will result in the issue stalling the project for an indeterminate length of time, a situation not acceptable in today’s construction environment.

It may really be that my own bias against WRM plays a role in the disgust I have with this topic, but if we are going to let WRM bypass the usual quality controls everyone else has to experience, is it too much to ask that they actually understand the topic they write about?

Heavy sighs all around.

@Bobbyfrank ’s commentary captures and amplifies my feelings about what I see in a large percentage of the WRM articles I happen upon.

It’s not just one more gripe. Despite the constant assurances we get that the WRM program is improving, and the “nobody is perfect” excuse that is used to summarily dismiss most of our legitimate concerns about the WRM and editing fellow programs, @Alabaster and @Bobbyfrank are correct in that a significant number of WRM articles are being created by someone who is obviously not an expert in the field, using cherry-picked and questionable sources, and with outright incorrect or false information. 

I went through 2 or so pages of the latest WRM creations. Here is what I found.

Nothing in this article addresses anything specific to dealing with criminal charges as an athlete. This is completely generic advice that would apply to anyone who has been arrested.

Nothing in this article addresses anything specific to treating hemorrhoids after pregnancy. The advice would apply to anyone treating hemorrhoids. The advice is nearly the same as the other hemorrhoid articles. The other articles even mention that they are common after pregnancy. So… what’s special about this article?

The article overgeneralizes that “products sold in the US and in many other parts of the world are not allowed to include asbestos as an ingredient and are tested to determine if asbestos is a contaminant” which is simply not true. The EPA website ( https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/us-federal-bans-asbestos ) lists over a dozen products that contain asbestos that are currently used and manufactured in the US, including brake pads. The source listed is not an Internet source, but I found this with a simple Google search. How did the writer miss this?

Article describes tryptophan as “an amino acid famous for being in your Thanksgiving turkey.” It is a myth that turkey contains more tryptophan than other meats, which is what the author is implying, perpetuating the myth. So yes, it is in your Thanksgiving turkey, but it’s also in your burgers, chicken, etc., and it’s not what makes you tired after eating a Thanksgiving meal. Research. Even a minimal amount. Gives us way more credibility than simply using common knowledge or urban legends. 

Detailed, “expert reviewed” content is already available in the article http://www.wikihow.com/Identify-Different-Dog-Worms , which is more comprehensive and useful because it helps the reader distinguish between the different types of worms which present with different symptoms. It is the 2nd search result when you search for “dog heartworm”… so why was it determined that this article needed to be created?

This topic is already covered in a subsection of http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-a-Cat , which is reviewed by the same “expert reviewer.” From what I can tell, the criteria for picking a healthy adult cat are not much different from picking a cat of any other age, so again, why was it determined that this article needed to be created?

Again, this information is covered in http://www.wikihow.com/Identify-Different-Dog-Worms .

Existing, more detailed article (actually written and edited by the COMMUNITY) exists here: http://www.wikihow.com/Live-a-Vegan-Lifestyle-on-a-Budget . Notice any 

similarity in the titles? The article was also mis-categorized into a non-existent category by the WRM author, and this was also missed and not corrected by a Seymour Editor who reviewed the article. 

Another blatant duplicate of the existing, “expert reviewed” article http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Shoulder-Pains . Home treatments, medical treatments, alternative treatments. Yep, it’s all covered in the existing article.

This is just going through two pages of contributions. I am frustrated by the quality of the articles being submitted, the choice of articles (still duplicates? after all this time, after all we have brought this up, after all we have been told the process is getting better), and by the responses given to the complaints and suggestions raised by the volunteers who care about the integrity of the site. 

I think it’s time to take a serious look at these programs, or at least admit that something is not right in the way they are being administered. The quality of work submitted by dedicated, knowledgeable volunteers who know how to complete a task because they have done it is infinitely more valuable and helpful than the creation of a hired gun, all-but-anonymous-to-us writer, who has done cursory Internet research on the topic, never actually done the task, and whom we cannot actually communicate with to give feedback.

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I agree with @Bobbyfrank and @Isorhythmic . I feel that unthrottled content creation by WRM is an ongoing problem that hurts the integrity of the site and dishonors the contributions of the knowledgable and caring volunteers who freely give of themselves.

I am disappointed, too, in the overall direction that wikiHow is going—toward generic pablum and eye candy. Unfortunately, dilution of the useful information in the wikiHow database seems to be proceeding at an alarming rate, fueled by the ill-considered content creation and unwarranted bold edits by paid contributors.

Thank you, @Isorhythmic , for supplying and commenting on some of the many examples which support my thinking.

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I tiptoed around a lot of similar articles that Jeff pointed out, in fact cherry picking a topic I am knowledgeable about, but thanks for expanding the topic.  Heaven forbid you mark one as merge for duplicate, though. The tag will disappear quickly.

Hmm, there are lots of big picture concerns here that I’m finding really hard to address through a forum post. I started writing a long reply to address your deeper concerns about wikiHow, but scrapped it when I realized that a lot of frustration is stemming from this feeling that we’re going around in circles. Sometimes the written medium just isn’t enough:frowning:I think this is a really important matter that’s worth discussing in person if we can, rather than rehashing through “gripe” forum posts and talk page messages, especially when feelings of frustration are involved.

@Isorhythmic @Alabaster Fortunately we’ll have that opportunity at the meetup soon (and this is pretty much the reason we have these meetups, so we can all connect and reconnect in a better way about the project). I’ll carve out time so you can talk to Jack.

@bobbyfrank I know you’re not coming to the meetup but would you like me to call you in when we meet there to discuss this?

In general - I’d like to emphasize that what gets created through paid efforts is in no way a measure or reflection with what you create as volunteers. There are several different avenues to try to get helpful content out to readers and they all have their strengths and weaknesses, but they’re not in competition with one another. I’ve been talking to a lot of people about why they contribute to wikiHow and I’ve noticed that the people have been with this project through so many years and changes and are the happiest about their wikiHow journey are the people who can constantly find joy in their wiki work, regardless of the landscape. This actually struck me as an important life insight. You do what you do because you enjoy it, because you want to spend your spare time helping people in the ways you enjoy. It’s important not to lose sight of the value of your own work, in its own right, independent of what others are doing next to you. We’re all here with the same goal–we won’t always agree on everything, but we can try to see eye-to-eye, and at the end of the day, what matters is what you did and why you did it.

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I agree with @Isorhythmic @Alabaster and @bobbyfrank

Is it practical to have the articles of WRM to be automatically given a clean bill of health without following wikiHow procedures? No. The fact they are published online unrestricted, not to be NABed, not placed in the appropriate new article queue is not a reliable procedure.

The articles are obviously done by inexpert, inexperienced writers (probably students) who do “inaccurate”, unknowing and “incomplete” research and wedged into the site.

It seems that no one is thoroughly checking for accuracy or validity. A check by a good proofreader who does not understand the topic is not sufficient to be logically called “verified by an expert”.

Articles need to be screened, edited, tagged as necessary and promoted when it is not needing to be deleted, “not nfd|dup”, is “not nfd|acc”, “not temp|acc”, “not nfd|inc,” “not a stub”, and meeting various other How to standards that any published wikiHow articles normally are expected to pass.

Overrunning/Overriding the procedures is also called “railroading” or “slam dunking”.

Just wanted to clarify a few misconceptions:

Writers have at least a bachelor’s degree, many have a Masters, PhD or professional degree (a few are in progress).

For the topics that are expert reviewed, a professional like a veterinarian or attorney (not a proofreader) who has had their credentials checked reviews an edited page on a topic in their area of expertise and provides feedback, which is integrated into the article, before signing off on the review. If you click on the name of the expert, it links to a page listing all of them and their areas of expertise.

@Garshepp I’d love to talk more with you about this as well, since I feel like the remainder of your concerns coincide with the deeper issues raised in this thread. Can I call you during the meetup when we chat about this stuff?

So, an educated person can do lousy research and produce garbage, and you don’t want to air the dirty laundry. Fine. That doesn’t change the fact they produced a very, very bad piece of work, and it bypassed the usual quality control the rest of the community has to deal with.

This isn’t a one time deal, it simply illustrates the fact that whoever is overseeing the process of WRM isn’t doing the job. It isn’t just this article, it just happens this topic is one I am expressly familiar with.  Like a past discussion about their penchant for creating cleverly disguised duplicate content (read biodiesel) articles, which someone  implied they would look at later, the issue can be left for private discussion, but you don’t want us to talk about it here?

I think that once a discussion has escalated to the use of strong, emotionally-charged words like disgust, garbage, lousy, dirty, “isn’t doing the job”, dishonor, ill-considered, unwarranted… It’s likely for it to turn into an argument that doesn’t really get anyone anywhere. I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve never been very good at dealing with that kind of discussion. I’ve always preferred to find common ground and connect one-on-one, especially when I believe everyone has the best interests at heart, which I do here. It just seems like the myriad of issues brought up here all point to frustration over how wikiHow has changed over the past several years, and the direction it’s going in. I (and Anna) can only do so much to articulate the goals and approaches of these projects, but like I said earlier, sometimes a bunch of words on a screen are just a bunch of words on a screen…

I’m sorry if my suggestion to connect you and others directly with Jack is seen as me not wanting to “air the dirty laundry”. That suggestion was my humbly admitting that what I’m able to do, as community liaison, isn’t resolving your concerns, and that talking to Jack might be more effective, since he (unlike a lot of head honchos) is happy to sit down with a beer with you and talk things over.

I welcome the opportunity to talk at the meetup with all of the haus-volunteer team, but particularly with Jack, Jeff, Anna, and you, Krystle. I hope that the discussions are entered with the spirit of collaboration, whereby all participants are keen to identify the best elements from the mix of ideas and to integrate them into the fabric of wikiHow. I believe, though, that these meetup discussions should be in parallel with and an adjunct to open discussions in the public forums about the direction that wikiHow has taken/is taking. I am relatively new on the site and have only an inkling of the formative period of wikiHow , the period when policy and protocol were hammered out using the well-considered best judgement of a band of insightful, savvy individuals. What came out of that early collaboration is amazing: Essays, mission statement, hybrid organization, deletion policy, and ways of handling content were all arrived at with heavy input from the volunteer contingent. One of the factors which drew me to the site was wikiHow’s goal to become the world’s greatest enabler of humankind; a database which helps individuals everywhere do almost anything, when, before, they could not (or felt they could not). I ascribe to that goal and I believe that the policies put in place then and the methods that were developed for handling the spectrum of content submissions were spot on. I particularly liked the concept of accepting low quality content, then incrementally improving it over time until, one day, it might stand as the finest instruction set on the topic. Other wikiHow processes that resonated: dredging the depths and the way articles continually cycled through RCP, gradually being refined. Through the years, there were many individuals who arrived at well-considered systems of dealing with the articles they encountered in the various settings. Through repetition and thousands of hours, these caring minds categorized, tagged, groomed, and dispatched the articles with clocklike efficiency, so much so that both the regulars and the newcomers emulated these finely-tuned methods. In my time, TTrimm, BR, Isorhythmic, and Maluniu were the dynamos that energized the system. Like any corporate culture, the wikihaus culture evolved in increments to the current state in which the the haus:volunteer relationship is heavily weighted toward the haus. In times past, the community was made aware of the changes being considered by the haus and were actively invited to comment and to suggest alternatives and pitch them to others in the haus-volunteer community. Today, changes are contemplated in the haus, initiated in the haus, analyzed in the haus, and implemented primarily in the haus, then announced or rolled out to the volunteer community. Now, it seems that we volunteers are driving bumper cars with steering wheels that have been disconnected and do exactly nothing as the cars track along the path set by haus designs. We steer and steer, but soon come to realize that we are doing nothing; our actions have no effect. Along the evolutionary path, members of the volunteer community and the haus have developed ways of handling situations with efficacy. And, naturally, elements of those “expeditious ways” were copied and, thus, propagated throughout the community. So, today, there are far too many instances where individuals act efficaciously and do not truly value the thoughts, mindsets, and motivations of those suggesting change or submitting content. Rather, the trend is to deal with “new stuff” expeditiously. In any group or community, this penchant may well be inevitable, but in the wikiHow volunteer community, this has not actually settled in too strongly, maybe because other volunteers see the pattern and act to moderate it. (One exception is the blanket use of the nfd|acc which has recently been used in ways that are outside of its original intended use. I, for one, hope this extended use of nfd|acc diminishes dramatically.) I see many examples of staff deflecting legitimate concerns or taking no corrective action. Thus, many egregious and even dangerous situations remain months after volunteers who were powerless to make the needed changes took the time to bring these situations to the attention of the haus. There is only so much that a conscientious volunteer can (or will) do when it seems that she or he is beating her or his head on a wall at every turn. This is, perhaps, why Bob and Jeff are getting so frustrated. And the only way to correct the situation is to acknowledge the validity of their perceptions and the critical need for corrective action in the near term. That, coupled with direct feedback showing the corrective steps that were implemented (and asking if refinement is needed), would probably help heal wikiHow and go a long way towards healing the relationship with these tremendous contributors. What is most concerning, though, is what I perceive as a change in wikiHow’s raison d’être (reason to be)—from the driving force of wikiHow being that of empowering the whole of humankind to that of filling the wikiHow coffers with cash (through increased reads). There are many facets of this change, but all center on prettying up the articles and imbibing the articles with a mindless, pedestrian spirit centered on the American-scientific view and book-learning. What is falling by the wayside is the deep knowledge of experience and of ancient ways (which were found by much trial and error, tested by the years, and then passed to others apprentice-style). There were good reasons why the framers of the wikiHow platform made it so that every change or content creation was reviewed. There were good reasons why each new title was screened for being a duplicate and why all pertinent information was gathered under one title that was the most easily searched. These were the pylons around which all articles had to go before being seen by the masses. Now the review and screening process has been circumvented—not for the volunteers in the community, but for the paid contributors only. I liken this situation to the pursuit of happiness. When happiness is pursued directly, it vanishes into thin air. Happiness arrives out of the ether; only when unsought. It just is. The difference between the pursuit happiness and the pursuit of money is the pursuit of money is a seeking of a man-created entity. Money can be pursued successfully by man, but what disappears in that pursuit is all of the wonderful, natural qualities and wisdom inherent in natural, unsullied systems. It seems to me that human pride when thinking that man, science, and book-learning knows all has caused true knowledge and deep knowing to disappear, vanishing into thin air. The reality is that mankind knows very little, yet thinks he knows very much. We have not taken the teeniest bit of the first hint of taking the first baby step toward being able to create a seed, a viable unit marvelously small, yet containing the information-spirit blend which allows a mature plant (in connection with all nature’s parts) which, in turn, enables more of its kind to continue through time. Time and again, science proposes the solutions, but then has to back down from those solutions and acknowledge their lacking as well as the deeper knowing built into nature’s way. The reality is that science and book-knowledge is only good at manipulating the things of man, the world of man. Just one small illustration: Proud man used to think that he knew how matter worked. Now we find that when we delve into the smallness of atom constitution, we find nothing is there, only energy and potential. We now hypothesize dark matter and dark energy to make things work out the way we know they do. So that leaves only 4% of all that is that we know anything about. And man acknowledges that, of the 4%— the billions of stars in the Milky Way amid millions of billions of galaxies— we know so very little, even about what we can directly touch and see. It seems to me that the evolution of wikiHow has turned the corner and is now proceeding down a path of self-deception, one which does not serve the original purpose of empowering mankind to grow, flourish, and come to true knowledge. I hypothesize that the reason Jeff and Bob cry so loudly is because they do so as if for a child of theirs; one with great potential, one with whom they have shared much time, great wisdom, and more than a little hope, but a child who has squandered all the great potential within. I hypothesize that the cries reflect great disappointment that the vast potential has been squandered and not a little anguish, too. The good news is that the potential of wikiHow still exists and can be easily tapped. wikiHow resources are vast, only waiting to be tapped and activated in an intelligent way. For example, the engineers could focus on creating tools for sharing tools (between volunteers). The engineers could focus on keeping appropriate tools within hand-reach of each volunteer (based on the individual’s facility with wikicode and learning style(s)). Together, these initiatives would empower the volunteer base to be more productive, perhaps exponentially so. The engineers could focus on creating layers within articles, whereby each reader could select the knowledge-view he wanted or could flip through them—book-learning-scientific, master-craftsman, ancient-culture, ayurvedic, … Thus, the articles could be all-inclusive. Images could be tailored to the article instead of being universally hand-drawn or cartoonish. The engineers could work out ways to use parts and methods in combination and not make them mutually exclusive. … I apologize for the tl;dr character of this post. I guess the Serendipic verbosity got activated, but,… I strongly feel that the discussion needs to continue.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, @Alabaster . This is a lot to think about! It’s hard for me to respond philosophically but I hope I can at least clarify a few things.

I think there’s a tendency to idealize the “good old days” and wikiHow is no exception:slight_smile:But a big difference is that in the earlier years, there were a lot more policies to be hashed out, and that was always community domain. It still is, but the policies from our founding community members have served us remarkably well, and we’ve resisted the urge to over-develop policy.

It sounds like what you hope for is a collaborative community with an educational mission where its members make the majority of decisions through consensus, and the only financial resources are from donations… That is actually Wikipedia’s exact model. Their community is very different from ours, and I would be curious, if you would really like to get an insight into how human nature plays out in a purely consensus-driven environment, to get your thoughts on what you think those differences are, and why you think those differences exist. But it won’t take you long to see that there is a lot of frustration over there too. 

I can tell you personally that I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t trust Jack and believe in this particular model. I’m incredibly lucky to have become part of this project from before it was even launched, and to be able to make a living and serve as a community manager for such a wonderful group of people, but there are many community manager jobs out there and there’s a reason I’ve stuck with this particular one for the long haul. Not only are we doing amazing things in terms of education, but we also seem to have carved out the friendliest large community on the web. I keep looking for examples of other large communities that balance education and collaboration the way we do (or in a better way? so I can learn from them) and I haven’t found anything remotely close yet. At the end of the day, despite disagreements (and scrolling through some gross messages on my talk page) I feel really good about being a part of that.

Great words @Alabaster . I know some people won’t care that I have read this and will likely tutt and shake their heads at the mere sight of my name but I just wanted to compliment the eloquence of Alabaster’s word, let ALL of you know that every-day-Joe contributors like myself are reading this post and do CARE about what’s being said. I hope that the concerns raised by all of you are addressed at the meet up.

Hi,

My friend Alabaster only intended to point out the diverted focus from the quality of articles to a pretty/ generic packaging. I doubt if he has any problems with the staff making money. We all know they do and some of us have also read the wikiHow statistics page which mentioned how much of the profit has been donated towards charity.

The point of bringing out all these aspects that revolve around the staff alone like how much authority they have over decision making is to find a solution and to work towards removing the unhealthy bias.

wikiHow is a great site in terms of its volunteer base, the friendliness and the ever developing connect of the staff with the volunteers. I dont know of other sites so it is difficult to come up with a name that works so closely knit as wikiHow.When wikiHow was started by Jack et al, they might have had the vision to provide a comprehensive, easy and helpful how to guide about as many activities as they could. I think the haus allows enormous openness and freedom to work for the mission.

For a small staff, the vision seems to have been fulfilling really well over the years. However, with time and progress - where wikiHow is going - comes many new avenues to work on. Expansion is happening. The volunteers have been bringing forth errors in steps written by experts and skilled volunteers are suggesting newer tools to cut down on conflicts and glitches for the benefit of wikiHow.

When such innovation and improvement is happening, it calls for expansion in the staff as well to

  • Handle the queries raised by volunteers.
  • To resolve conflicts which are raised by concerned and experienced contributors and the rest.

Krystle mentioned two things-

  • This conversation can be taken to the meet up the reason being this thread getting sort of abusive/ aggressive.

  • The small staff can do only so much moreover they are trying to figure out better results.

If the discussion is getting angry, then the staff are all qualified and experienced to handle the situation. Why divert it to the meetup? If someone in the staff is finding it time consuming or too stressful to deal with, then why not expand the staff base to meet he needs of the growing community? It would helpful if Jack can make time on this discussion instead of having to wait till the meet up.

We all care to know how and where this concern and topic reaches, so we all would support the idea of dealing with it on the forums. Getting the minutes of the meetup from those who were there does not sound easier than having it dealt with here.

I would also like to express that taking care of the experts is only good ethics from the staffs’ side. However, it gets unfair when their articles can easily be tagged as merge or duplicate candidates by the community members, but they are not. They have been raising the concerns after years of experience with the site however majority of the problems have not been resolved. Let’s heed the fact that the veterans are not complaining because they are angry. They are reporting problems which deserve a solution. 

One of the solutions is for all the wrm articles also to go through quality review. Of course their articles stand a chance to be vandalized just like any other contributor’s. However, patrollers and other alert boosters et al will roll back bad edits. The experts are paid, but I don’t think they will raise an objection if their articles and edits are left to stand in a queue to be okayed. The process will only be fair and reduce redundancy. I believe the experts are also just as modest and game for the healthy way of screening their edits.

I don’t think that Krystle meant overall discussions like this shouldn’t happen in the forums, Vish. She’s just saying that the best setting to talk about the broader issues and approaches is going to be in person - we all know that forum discussions can end up going round and round in circles, and in this area, we’ve been around and around a few times already. The hope is that some discussions at the meet-up will help get to the heart of the different perspectives here, like Ron said - with a collaborative spirit, talking about the pros and cons of all the approaches we use to share content here, and how they could be better. Some of our most active boosters will actually be at the meetup, too, so it’ll be a good opportunity to get their input, as well. 

One point in your post does stick out to me: you mentioned redundancy and merging, as others have in the past, too. Perhaps because I came into this project a little later in the game - like you, Ron, and HB - I might be in a good position to comment on this. The Merge Policy is something that took a long time to “click” for me, and I still often have to get a second opinion when I run into topics I’m unsure of. I know that many of us have that neat and tidy instinct where we want to bunch related advice together under main topics. But the more and more I edit and boost, the more I see the sense of really sticking to the letter of the Merge Policy: “Are these phrases interchangeable in all cases?”

I’ll admit I occasionally stumble upon some articles that I marked for merging in my early days here and cringe a little that I missed some fairly big potential distinctions between topics. And I’ve seen other, more experienced editors like Felicity kindly removing them and clarifying the differences between two topics that I felt were similar at the time but were not truly interchangeable.  I’m sure I still don’t always get it right; the drive to add that merge tag from NAB can be strong when you’re trying to clean up and sort things out! But I do think that sticking to that policy is important for the wiki and for our readers (and encourage others to remove my tags if I’ve missed the mark on any articles out there!). 

Two related topics may have a big overlap in content but still be distinct, and the only way for readers to find the info they’re looking for is for us to provide both. I don’t think there’s any harm in that: the more helpful info we can put out there that readers are looking for, the more people we can help, and the closer we can get to fulfilling our mission of helping people learn how to do anything. It’s fair to say that many newly written topics, especially in the medical realm, are similar to others that are already out there. I think Bob was referring, above, to my removal of a merge tag on How to Relieve Blister Pain, which suggested merging with How to Treat a Blister. While there is definite overlap there, I think there is still an important distinction there form a reader’s point of view (relieving pain is not exactly the same as treating an underlying issue), and providing articles focused on what their actual goal in the moment is helps us help them. 

When someone on the WRM team goofs and write a real dup, it’s really easy to fix; the titling process isn’t perfect, and when it goes wrong, merging is totally doable. But where the topic is written and doesn’t mean the exact same thing, when there are distinctions or differences in specificity between two titles, the community-derived policy is to keep both and make both as helpful as can be. Even if it means me fighting my itch to press the merge button…!  :)

@Alabaster  and @Isorhythmic     I’m looking forward to sitting down with you guys soon over a beer to have a good collaborative discussion about this.   @Bobbyfrank  it would be great if you could you join us by phone. 

For those new to this discussion…we’ve actually been having this discussion online now for several years and pretty much ended up in the same place:slight_smile: In my experience, when things happen like that it’s best to take the discussion face to face to rekindle the spirit of collaboration.  Otherwise you risk the spirit of the discussion deteriorating to strong words and frayed emotions. We’ve all read the wrong sort of pointed discussions happening all over the internet and none of us wants to have that happen at wikiHow :) 

I have no objection discussing the issues by phone, provided we find a time to do it, I have to pass on the beers, since that is a habit I haven’t developed, but it might be feasible to substitute a cold diet Mt. Dew.

There still doesn’t seem to be a reason the issue cannot be discussed here, all I ask is that someone would consider, just consider, the question, why do people produce content they obviously have no knowledge of?  Not having an article on a topic seems more reasonable than having one that is both inaccurate, and by its inaccuracy, misleading.  I touched base with @Anna today about an edit to an article about cutting stone, it suggested using a sledgehammer to pound a hatchet on the stone, and it was very well referenced. I then visited the article used as a reference, and it was obviously not something I would want anyone to try.  I see the same thing with articles about auto repair, construction, and other topics that are handled by editors sanctioned by wikiHaus, and it seems reasonable to assume that similar problems might be happening with other topics of which I know  little or nothing.

In the past, if an editing fellow made an edit I didn’t think helped, I would send them a message with my concerns. Jacob and a few others have been great to collaborate with, but there are some now who either don’t read messages or think the suggestions are not worth their time.  I think sanctioned content should be done by an individual who can be contacted directly, including WRM contributors and Seymore Editors, rather than having to go through @Anna , who has lots to deal with already.  Is there a reason this isn’t possible?

BTW, thanks, Mr. H, for taking time to weigh in!

@HumanBeing - I think your sensibilities are excellent and love the way you cut through the stereotypical views of some of the youth with well-grounded observations. I am sure that many wikiHowians value your thoughts and actions as highly as I do.

@Vishwavijay - Thank you for being so wise. You totally got what I was saying and significantly enhanced the discussion with your excellent perspective. You said: The point of bringing out all these aspects that revolve around the staff alone like how much authority they have over decision making  is to find a solution and to work towards removing the unhealthy bias and your words cut to the heart of my concerns. It is my strong feeling that the decision-making balance has shifted from one of the haus actively seeking volunteer opinions and folding them into the wikiHow fabric to one of the haus acting as a centrist group and deciding what is best, then proclaiming the new way. 

I, personally, do not have a problem with such a shift. What I do have a problem with is marginally tenable justifications and the undermining of a founding wikiHow ideal, namely, that equal consideration be given to all content based on merit alone (or lack thereof). I, too, wonder why the haus does not say clearly and in plain words what direction it is moving or contemplating moving and why they feel the need to move in that direction. Perhaps, if the haus communicated its hopes and intentions transparently and with complete honesty, we would not be having this discussion today.

As Jeff and Bob pointed out, special provisions have been made so that content created by paid entities goes directly into the database without the standard volunteer screens - boosting and review in RCP. In fact a long, convoluted process has been created and paid work can always be said to be in progress. Of course, this is the normal state of content in wikiHow and not a real excuse for not examining the current state of any article. Why can’t a template be put on articles that are undergoing haus supervised improvement? The template could show check boxes for each step in the process, then, when all the boxes are checked, the article could automatically go into the appropriate queue - boosting or RCP.

Bob pointed out that an inordinate amount of WRM content is inaccurate and ill serves the readers. In the past, it has been explained that WRM stands for wikiHow Raw Materials. The concept is that paid contributors provide starting material to fill gaps in the database. What actually seems to be happening in many cases is that there is no real gap in the database, only a tiny crack wedged open by fancy selection of titles which marginally overlap existing titles. With @Anna ’s post, the discussion has turned to whether specific titles indeed qualify as duplicates according to the merge policy . This is beside the point. Often, WRM content creation violates the spirit of the merge policy with the result that paid content supplants volunteer-created content.

Bob also pointed out that a significant portion of the WRM and SeymourEdits content is legitimatized by non-authoritative, poorly chosen research sources. What I have also observed is that references are sometimes misapplied. That is, a passage in an article might be attributed to a certain source, when, upon checking, I find that the source did not actually state anything resembling the article step.

I think Bob’s request for a feedback loop which would connect volunteers directly to the individuals working on the various teams is highly reasonable. I also feel that a direct feedback mechanism would go a long way toward resolving some (or most) of the ongoing problems mentioned in this thread.

Finally, I think it important to build lasting value into each and every article in the database, confident that doing so will ensure wikiHow’s value to future generations. I do not think that the readers are as hypnotized by generic advice as the mass content creators and the haus seem to presume. I hope and I believe that most readers unfailingly recognize when something rings true, is right, and is of lasting value. Building accurate, actionable steps within each article seems like it would be a sure way to build wikiHow’s reputation, then wikiHow views, and then monetary inflow. To me, that is the proper order of things.

@Jack-Herrick - I look forward to meeting you in person and hearing your views.

Me neither Anna.With this - If the discussion is getting angry, then the staff are all qualified and experienced to handle the situation. Why divert it to the meetup?

and the rest that i wrote was not to imply that all such discussions must go to the meetup and not be addressed here.

Anyways, just hoping that the meet up and/ or this discussion leads to healthy results which helps the site and the connected entities as well.

About putting WRM through NAB, I’m open to having that discussion, but I do think it should include the people who are doing the majority of the boosting. We worked really hard, really really hard, to bring down the backlog and change the architecture of NAB to keep it at zero (something we collaborated on at a past meetup actually), so I don’t want to make any hasty decisions that might undo that, especially with articles that are already getting review through other means so it’d mean some overlap and more work for the few active boosters we have. The top 5 boosters over the past month are going to be at the meetup and aren’t present in this thread (except Anna).

In terms of having a discussion in the forums vs. phone/person, I think having a forum discussion is good, but it’s worth remembering that some people don’t feel comfortable participating in a forum discussion and I don’t want to exclude them. Sometimes they just don’t have the time or interest in reading a long thread and crafting a reply and that is ok. There are many community members who rarely speak up in this context, but have a lot to say when we talk at meetups.