After discussion in the original thread ( http://forums.wikihow.com/discussion/2612/wikihow-forums-guideline-set-/#Item\_37
) the set of ten proposed forum guidelines has been cut back to three. They are as follows:
You can vote here ( http://www.wikihow.com/wikiHow:Policy-Proposals/Forum-Guidelines#Voting
) and voting will continue until November 7th (nine days from now). If approved, these guidelines will hopefully be placed as an announcement in each subforum. -Mike
Lois in the other thread about this you said that you were in support of taking those 3 and turning them into a set of forum guidelines. ( http://forums.wikihow.com/discussion/comment/38668/#Comment\_38668
)
You said you supported Dave’s idea to choose those three and place them at the top of each subforum (along with the potential addition of other supporting articles). That’s exactly what this proposal would do. Look, we can all wax about how common sense used to be common, and that we should never have to be at a point where we codify it. Clearly these forums aren’t as successful as they could be, though. That’s because there are users not observing these and other “common sense rules”. ------------------- Let me recap my experience with this proposal. 1. Write up a set of ten guidelines. Ask in IRC on a weekend day for opinions/whether it’s worth posting/etc. Get no response. 2. Post them, entirely in accordance with prior site policy. 3. Get a generally negative response. Hear about how common sense shouldn’t have to be put down on paper. 4. Post about how I was a little disappointed but ready to accept that my proposal wasn’t going anywhere and move on. 5. Get badgered into continuing with the proposal, because apparently people really liked certain points. 6. Have three people agree that 1, 4, and 7 could be sustainable on their own and would be wise to place at the top of each subforum. 7. Seek further consensus on where to go from there. Get none, in FIVE DAYS, except from WikiRicardo. 8. Post a final thread myself, having to play things entirely by ear as I got no feedback on what the voting process should be like. 9. Get criticized in that thread, even by individuals who originally were ready to lend a “supporting vote” to a proposal which is exactly the same as the one I put out here.
Would we approve of these as a list of “wikiHow Forums Expectations” to be posted somewhere within the forums? I’d just really love to see some agreed-upon form of a “welcome to the wikiHow Forums, this is the sort of behavior we expect posters here to follow” available. (Sorry for not sticking in the discussion more the last few days- I’ve had dress rehearsals and performances for my school play- I’m back in the game now though)
system
5
#1
seems more along the “common sense” road. It’s one of those “carried on from the main site guidelines”. Some of these modern days, I see people coming into IRC and either complaining or asking an administrator to do something to someone whom is acting immature, not following “standard” rules, etc - but when their talk page comes up, there’s either no constructive criticism/assistance from the original person for the behavior to stop or they are giving out warning templates without an actual explanation (the problem, what they can do to stop, and why). #2
Remembering back, the old forums were a pure hell concerning debates than these new forums, don’t you think? Not that
much of an issue… and it’s pretty easy to just simply close w/ a short and sweet explanation from an admin. What’s the use of #3
? I don’t think we ever had an issue of it to take it up a policy level.
system
6
It’s a sad thing… when we come to the point where we feel the need to codify common sense.
Maniac
8
+2, which I also mentioned in the previous thread regarding this issue.
system
9
Just because I agree with the three ideas doesn’t mean I don’t mourn the fact that society has degenerated to the point where there is a need to spell out “common sense” as rules. Common sense… just isn’t as common as it used to be, apparently.
system
10
I really do feel your pain (even though I don’t love the proposal). When it comes to suggesting ideas on a wiki, it is best to go with an attitude that your audience isn’t going to listen or support you. From most of my threads (so far), I have gotten only a few positive comments with a mostly underwhelming/negative response. Fortunately, at wikiHow, nobody has attempted to label me as being an imbecile or assign me the derogatory name that I am referred to on my home wiki (which is so horrendous that I can’t even say it here). As long as I am not doing anything to break the wiki, much of what I do is tolerated. This is why I continue with my experiment. The tolerance is all that I need; after I am here for a while, and if I am persistent, someone will listen. The only reason that I have had such a negative response to your idea is because it would put more general and vague restrictions on what users can say/do. It would be better to avoid rules set in stone and let members of the community (especially admins, but regular users shouldn’t be edged out) use their common sense to chide/deal with disruptive users. But even still, I have assigned my name in support of the idea. We will see how it goes…
system
11
Okay… let’s start with the positive… I appreciate Mike’s interest in the forums. The fact that he spends time here, reads the postings and thinks things through to the point of suggesting helpful ideas is a wonderful thing. Thanks Mike! And now with the sad facts… that we’re still all individuals… still all volunteers… and still just as difficult to wrench consensus out of as ever. I’m actually a teeny bit surprised that you got ANY response in less than a week. Usually things involving large numbers of people deciding on common guidelines to use can take upwards of a month to arrive at a consensus on. Take it as a compliment that you’ve gotten this much feedback so early! I would urge a bit of patience here. I understand it’s frustrating. I understand it feels like it should be moving faster. I get it. Really. But!.. (and we just KNEW that word was coming somewhere down the line, didn’t we? ) Let’s keep in mind that consensus building is a lot more complex of a process than making individual decisions. The old “con is the opposite of pro… so Congress is the opposite of Progress” adage still rings true. The more people you are obligated to include in the decision making, the more time and frustration you are letting yourself in for. Please cut the community some slack here. We’ve all got responsibilities in real life… many users get on wikiHow only once a day… some only once or twice a week. So we need to assume that it will take a bit longer than a week for everyone who is interested in the proposal to weigh in… then another week or two for everyone to comment on everyone else’s ideas. In the meantime? There are a lot of things an individual can do to improve the current situation that do not require a set of forum guidelines to accomplish. Some of those things have already been suggested… giving links to forum etiquette articles… leaving a personal note about how things work… offering to coach the newbie on appropriate forum behavior… etc. Let’s do what we can, and let the wheels of consensus do their grind at their own pace. I’m very pleased to see you taking an interest in the governance of the site. Thanks, and best wishes for this proposal!
Why make it a rule when you can make it an expectation? There are differences between rules and expectations. For rules, the proper thing to do is let the punishment fit the crime. For expectations, the proper thing to do is let the punishment fit the crime, circumstances, and person. Expectations are for limits that are somewhat undefined; rules are too rigid. Also, if someone unknowingly defies a rule/expectation, with a rule the punishment is constant, whereas with an expectation, you can get off easy the first time, and the severity of punishment will accumulate until the person decides to figure out what they’ve done wrong. It seems this forum is in a greater need for expectations than rules; the limits of common decency here are most certainly undefined, and it would be wrong to ‘punish’ someone for trolling if they did it unwittingly once. It would also be wrong to offer the same ‘punishment’ every time someone trolls; it must add up until they know not to troll again. I don’t expect anyone to agree that there should be expectations, but I hope I can get people to agree that there shouldn’t be rules.
system
14
Wow. I wholeheartedly agree with Lois’s post.
system
15
IRC doesn’t seem like an environment where everyone wants to listen to new policy proposals, and rightfully so (amending policy is not an exciting theme for conversation). I have stopped going there because I can’t seem to associate with everyone peaceably, and it is creepy to sit in the chat, lurk, and avoid saying anything.
system
16
I’m pretty sure you and I are using my “wow” in two entirely different meanings. Yes, myself and others are “logged” in IRC on the weekends, but I’m pretty busy and don’t attend to watching my screen all that much.
+1 How about we just have one Terms of Use statement - Moderators of the wikiHow Forums reserve the right to, at any time for any reason related directly or indirectly to the wikiHow Forum expectations, remove any content, change any content, or initiate any blocks to anyone for any period of time. Then, the 3 forum policies Mike’s proposing wouldn’t be policies, we’d make them the forum expectations and nothing more, as the ToU. manages the consequences and questions about the expectations.
Melwade
19
When looking at the Philosophy and Values here http://www.wikihow.com/Category:WikiHow-Tour
it seems to cover everything we need already. It shouldn’t matter if you are on the forum or on a talk page.
system
20
@Metsguy234
Sorry you’re frustrated
Some advice I’ve given others who have proposed ideas is to back up your idea with examples of situations where the new policy would have helped. There is a general resistance to develop additional policy on a wiki unless we are confident it will solve problems. I think maybe some people are not sure that having a written set of guidelines will mean people will read them and behave differently on the forums. One issue is that often the worst offenders are people who don’t read rules
