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Instead of labeling things as “Leafy Vegetables”, “Stalk Vegetables”, or “Pod Vegetables” (my main concern is how easy vs difficult category names would be for just about anyone to understand)… to me, it’s a tad confusing… why not mimic the category tree like how it is in the Recipes one? You have things like Maize (official name for corn), Tomatoes, Potatoes, etc.
Whatever you think works, @Maluniu
. The difference between cooking and growing is that many vegetables with similar growing habits are not necessarily cooked similarly. It may make a tad more sense to list vegetables for growing in allied families with similar growing seasons; water, sun, and soil requirements. If that organization is going to get in the way of understanding how to categorize, then it probably should not be considered. Since I am not much of a gardener, nor a chef, perhaps some other folks should check in on the best categorization. Frankly, I just looked at vegetable categories on the net and arrived at these.
Hi Ron, Categories are / Categorization is a pet project/task (sometimes peeve) of mine. I think you’ve done quite a nice job of sorting these. A very general and common classification scheme is by what we eat - so you’re on the right track: Root vegetables, Leaf vegetables, etc. A couple of quick notes (I’ll have to come back and look more thoroughly later when I’ve got a bit more time) - since I’m into both gardening and cooking, but this about gardening: 1. Kohrabi is not a root vegetable. The part you eat grows above ground and is in fact the modified stem of a plant in the cabbage family. Therefore, it would rightly be placed in your “cruciferous veg” category. In fact, I’d probably stick the whole cabbage family under “Leaf vegetables” (note: not “leafy” veg) 2. We need to keep in mind the people who are using the site both to search and categorize. Not too many people, I feel, would be familiar with the term “cruciferous” (I am, but only because I actually research in depth the stuff I grow, and I have a background in Biology). 3. I wouldn’t put corn in the “pod” category. It’s actually a grass (we eat the unripe seed heads). There aren’t too many other grasses we eat, so I’d leave corn as a category unto itself. 4. Where are the tomatoes? There are dozens of articles… Please do not say they are categorized under “fruit” - even though that’s what they really are (and so are all the melons, squashes, etc.) Anyway, I’ve got to get back to work. Just popped in to see what was new… :0)
Yeah, @Deniske
, I can buy into corn and tomatoes in their own categories. That moves the categorizations a step closer to @Maluniu
’s vision of paralleling the ‘cooking food’ categorizations. - I can also go with leaf over leafy. - No biggie either way. - The base categories I have seen are varied, but I chose “seed and pod” over “pod” and “corn.” Half a dozen of one, … - Among experts, there seems to be differences in the base categories and quite a bit of dual categorization: Several plants are classed one way with a notation that they could also be included elsewhere. Again, this points to the wisdom of Mal’s inclination to shy away from this type of grouping. - Good point, too, on the cruciferous. Such a handy category, though. (I felt that top categorizers would have little difficulty assimilating the veggie subcategories, including cruciferous, and using them properly.) Anyone is welcome to refine my initial sortings. They were a crude attempt to get a start on creating more useful categories for “vegetables” instead of lumping so many together. Thank you for your input, @Deniseke
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Oh, I had kohlrabi dual classified - cruciferous and root (I guess because it is kin to a turnip). I was not aware that the root part is not eaten. I ignored tomatoes, not wanting to get into that debate. I ignored herbs for the same reason. Most herbs could aptly be classed as leaf vegetables or seed/pod vegetables - vegetables, in the larger sense, being plant parts that you eat. My sketch is only a start and is not comprehensive. I did spend a fair amount of time dredging articles and sorting them, but I am sure much more can be done.
You’ve done a great job, Ron, really. I can imagine what it was like culling through all those articles! At the wikiMania conference there was a discussion on categories (over at wikipedia)…the issues they’re facing (like category loops, one article categories, mis-categorized articles) we are facing, too…and some day the whole cat tree will probably need looking at (big project I should think, unless it can be automated). As for herbs…they’re classified as herbs, separate from vegetables.
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With a smile and a warm hug, there isn’t an army creating Categories and it can be a tough task on those who do the heavy lifting… not that I have done much of that in recent years due to doing other things on the site but from experience, my first comment is that I think Maluniu does an incredible job tending the Categories and I appreciate all that she has done in this area over the years. I’d also like to point out that there is a reason for severely restricting dual categories - this was the rule we were handed down with in 2006, presumably as it complicates the structure and causes more (I think mostly unnecessary) work for categorisers. Second comment is that the help that you can provide via this forum is really important and I really appreciate what Ron has done here by way of finding a breakdown, doing the research, coming up with articles to suggested categories. That’s hugely helpful. I can also see the point Maluniu is getting at, about keeping things simple. The more “clever” or “obtuse” a categorisation becomes, the harder it gets for people to know where articles should go. That said, presumably if we ensure that the basics are there, the top level category shouldn’t be a bother to such persons, meaning that one does not need to know that a pea is a legume provided the Peas sub-category is there. The problem will be what gets left in the “Legumes” cat, as the rule was always a minimum of five articles per category/sub-category, with exceptions for common sense. Maybe the veggie area is one such exception. From a glance through my veggie growing books, there seems to be a preference for alphabetisation rather than complex division, to make it easy for people to find the veggies. And in those books, don’t quibble about precise meanings - tomatoes, for example, are simply placed in veggies as an expected food grown in a vegetable garden. And just to show you that variety is the spice of life, here is a breakdown from one book: 1. Solanums - Eggplant (aubergine) - Peppers (capsicum/bell peppers, chillies - Tomatoes Potatoes were not included here, but under Roots because they need less attention and are fine with cooler conditions 2. Legumes - Beans - French beans, bush beans, climbing beans, runner beans, broad beans - Peas - Lentils - Chick peas/garbanzos 3. Greens - Celery and celeriac - Lettuce - Mustards - Spinach and silverbeet - Assorted cooking greens - Assorted salad greens There were more but it is already getting complicated - after all, how many people will get the last two divisions accurate… 4. Brassicas - Broccoli - Brussels sprouts - Cabbage - Cauliflower - Collards - Kale - Kohlrabi - Swede/rutabaga - Turnips 5. Roots - Beetroot/beets - Carrots - Parsnip - Potatoes - Radishes 6. Curcubits - Cucumbers - Melons - Zucchini (courgettes) and pumpkins 7. Alliums - Garlic, shallots (can’t remember the US word off top of head) - Leeks - Onions 8. Miscellaneous Vegetables - Asparagus - Sweetcorn - Horseradish - Globe artichokes (I guess you could put rhubarb here, although it’s got the opposite issue of tomatoes, in that it’s used as a sweet food.) So, I’ve just added more to this pot but it does need careful thought about the future expectations as well as what is here now. Plus, we have to be careful that the category names aren’t the same as those in Recipes, or they won’t work. So there may need to be a naming convention carried through, such as: “Growing X Plant”, etc. If those of you with a passion for this topic could perhaps finalise the suggested categories in a way you’re happy with, those few of us who do try to keep the categories in shape will be guided nicely. Remembering too that the categories team will make final choices based on experience of what works…
PS Small comment on the “whole cat tree” re-look - that’s a big story, and it has already happened before and yes, it was a huge job, especially for volunteers. One also has to ask if it has wikihaus support before getting into it… what we might think is useful/important may not be from their POV, having access to bigger pic stuff.
“Growing Melons” could be reinstated and that would help to reduce the large number of articles groups within the overarching category of “Growing Vegetables.” What does everyone think?
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@Alabaster
That was basically what I meant by following the Recipes category (Growing Corn, Growing Cucumbers, etc). The niche with complex vocabulary, despite they are actually regarded as such (Leafy, Stalk, Pod) as the first sketch presented, would be too overbearing to people categorizing things
Thanks much for all the revisions!
It took me a while to see your wisdom @Maluniu
, but @Flickety
helped. Is Melons a good category or should we wait for five articles on cantaloupes, five on watermelons, …?
